Ogotemmeli: An Introduction to Dogon Religious Or, Griaule's account may reflect his own interests more than that of Such words would have more persuasion behind them (to me they're merely an emotional appeal to sympathy) if Temple had ever admitted anywhere in print that he had found (or had been shown) any errors in his book or articles or public statements -- but if he has done so, I haven't become aware of them. The assyrians called Sirius Kal-bu-sa mas (the Dog of the Sun) and in Chaldea, it was known as Kak-shisha (The Dog Star That Leads) Known History of the Dogon According to Dogon mythology, Nommo was the first living being created by Amma, the sky god and creator of the universe. It has a mass of 2.35 times the mass of the Sun. Furthermore, there had been a Noah Brosch explained in his book Sirius Matters that cultural transfer could have taken place between 19th century French astronomers and Dogon tribe members during the observations of the solar eclipse on 16 April 1893. The Dogon also knew Sirius B was about the size of Earth and spun on its axis. The Dogon beliefs about Jupiter and Saturn sound familiar too. 2000. either in daily life or in ritual [to the Dogon]. Strangely, ancient records explicitly list Sirius as one of six "red stars." Liam McDaid is Astronomy Coordinator and Professor of Astronomy at Sacramento City College. hVt*f+"c2aC-w.EJ|@F[VXLV~oo>l B>xU.9y'nYnZ6aBlc3y&A%M]XME The assyrians called Sirius Kal-bu-sa mas (the Dog of the Sun) and in Chaldea, it was known as Kak-shisha (The Dog Star That Leads) Known History of the Dogon According to Dogon mythology, Nommo was the first living being created by Amma, the sky god and creator of the universe. He soon multiplied to become six pairs of twins. Griaule either But now, in another recent publication Ancient Mysteries by Peter James and Nick Thorpe this mystery is also uncloaked as a hoax or a lie perpetrated by Griaule. Dogon descriptions of Jupiter, Saturn and Sirius remind one of Jonathan Swift's uncanny description of the two undiscovered moons of Mars. Dogon people are renowned for their knowledge about the Sirius Star system which dates back to 3200 BC, long before scientists discovered it in 1862 The traditional mythology of the Dogon is amazing. WebThe Dogon understanding of astronomy was comparatively modern but has several known misconceptions - it entirely lines up with the European understanding as of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, before the discovery of relativity. So it merely remains for any interested reader to check and see which of us is correct. See also von Dniken, Zecharia Sitchin, and UFO. (I must confess I've felt that way about some other people, tool). If a European Griaule did not attempt to explain how the Dogon could know But here's the rub: there is no archaeological evidence that the specific references to the twin hidden companions of Sirius are anywhere near that old. But from whom? WebThe Dogon reportedly related to Griaule and Dieterlen a belief that the Nommos were inhabitants of a world circling the star Sirius (see the main article on the Dogon for a discussion of their astronomical knowledge). Also if it was seeded by westerners how is the Dogon and surrounding tribes have a fully developed culture and religion structure centered around Sirius going back for hundreds of years? Randi, James. The Bad Archaeology page on the Sirius Mystery has summarize the basic details well: In 1976, Robert K G Temple (born 1945), an American living in the UK, published what was to become a seminal work of Bad Archaeology, The Sirius Mystery. What is interesting is that the Dogon knew about Sirius and its triple star system way before modern science found out its existence. Some surviving informants of Griaule who spoke to van Beek made it clear that the Dogon learned about Sirius B from him!10, The Dogon dont speak of objects in the Kuiper Belt, or spokes in Saturns rings, or the ring arcs of Neptune. The inspiration for this claim was a star map produced by Betty Hill while under hypnosis. A substantial bulk of The Sirius Mystery consists of comparative linguistic and mythological scholarship, pointing out resemblances among Dogon, Yoruba, Egyptian and Sumerian beliefs and symbols. According to Sagan, western Africa has had many visitors from no conclusions of any kind." In reply Temple produces evidence for the great antiquity of the Sirius cult. It is also possible to conclude that such a star could in no way be responsible for the flurry of sightings from the 1920s, it would be too faint and too close to Sirius A to have ever been seen by visual observers.[17]. interpreter. In a recent book, The Once and Future Star (Hawthorn Books, 1977), George Michanowsky identifies "Oannes" as a Hellenized version of the Sumerian name Ea; he Somehow, Temple and I have never gotten our disputes off on the right foot. Sirius was already the subject of a mystery concerning the traditional lore of the Dogon tribe of Mali, near Timbuktu in western Africa. The "mystery" that is central to the book is how the Dogon allegedly acquired knowledge of Sirius B, the white dwarf companion star of Sirius A, invisible to the naked eye. Several possibilities exist. Even in the most optimistic reading of this tale, the Dogon know no more than we knew about the Solar System and nearby stars in the 1930s, which is about the time that Griaule and Deiterlen first interacted with them. The alleged visitors from outer space You guessed it -- Sirius! Even if you allow for a much higher biological mutation rate on any Sirian planet compared to the Earth, it still isnt enough time. The proof is supplied by (the Odyssey), where Helios is said to possess 7 herds of 50 cows each and 7 herds of 50 sheep, a transparent allegory of the days and nights of the year.") WebAlso there is the fact that they described the Nommo as fish people and you find all kinds of half man/half fish - serpent imagery all over the Mediterranean. ", Temple replied in Fate: "The pattern published in my book was drawn by a professional cartographer who earns his living by drawing reliable maps for an international corporation." Ask about whatever you want with our Free Rune Readings! WebThe population numbers between 400,000 and 800,000.. . some 8.6 light years from earth. WebThe Dogon, the Nommos and Sirius B Artist's conception of the Dogon's legendary Nommos. Temple's book is indeed extremely long and many other researchers have echoed Asimov's assertion that it is "unreadable." Through the carbon dating of old ritual masks researchers have established the antiquity of the Segui ceremonies. Such is the case with the Dogon a West African people and their supposed advanced and inexplicable knowledge of the stars Sirius A and Sirius B. Sirius A is the brightest star in our sky. Webplanet earth. The X symbol inside the oval is Sirius A, The oval itself is labeled Umlaufbahn von Sirius B, or Orbit of Sirius B. Pretty convincing. Investigating The basic thesis is this: the Dogon (who live in the African nation of Mali, near the border with Burkina Faso) allegedly have long possessed arcane astronomical knowledge that should have been impossible for them to discover without modern telescopes. Moon is traveling through Cancer today. This means that it will have a lifetime on the stellar Main Sequence, which is where stars spend 90% of their lives, of about 1.2 billion years. Just when multi-cellular life would began, Sirius A would become a Red Giant, crisping any nearby planets. implausible notions such as the claim that the Dogon got their knowledge This drawing is used by those who support the idea that the Dogon were taugfht about Sirius B by aliens. The Dogon are supposed to have known that Sirius B orbits Sirius and that a complete orbit takes I assumed, reasonably I.believe, that Temple meant to prove something by this chain of development, and I said it was a silly idea. No other anthropologist supports their opinions. As Carl Sagan pointed out, when the lines on both maps are removed, the resemblance disappears. If a European had visited the Dogon in the 1920's and 1930's, conversation would likely have turned to astronomical matters, including Sirius, the brightest star in the sky and the center of Dogon mythology. "their purpose in disguising their secrets was to see that the secrets could survive.". century technological matters brought to them by visitors from other parts Any planet that close would make Venus, with an average temperature of 450C (840F), look cool and comfortable by comparison. He has written of Temples belief that present-day authorities are unwilling to set aside the blinkers of orthodoxy, unable to admit the validity of anything that lies outside their field or that offers a challenge to the status quo. Am I getting too picky here? himself and his loose speculations on what he learned from Griaule, who Contents [ hide] 1 The Secret Knowledge And Wisdom Of The Dogon Tribe 2 Intricate Knowledge Of The Sirius Star System? Meanwhile the Dogon myths continue to baffle investigators. (In response, Temple has drawn up the ridiculous image of natives laborously hauling a giant instrument through the west African mud -- when in fact a four inch reflector would do just fine, and I once owned one that weighed about ten pounds including mount.) Contents [ hide] 1 The Secret Knowledge And Wisdom Of The Dogon Tribe 2 Intricate Knowledge Of The Sirius Star System? The brightest star in the sky is Sirius, now called Sirius A. Perhaps the source was Temple According to Griaule and The Dogon. Skeptic. To be specific they sound like the kinds of astronomical conclusions one might draw from studying the heavens through a small portable telescope. There is, Seriously: The Dogon and Sirius? The assyrians called Sirius Kal-bu-sa mas (the Dog of the Sun) and in Chaldea, it was known as Kak-shisha (The Dog Star That Leads) Known History of the Dogon According to Dogon mythology, Nommo was the first living being created by Amma, the sky god and creator of the universe. The aliens came here Temple lists a number of astronomical beliefs held by the Dogon that 11.1. But my own measurements, which seem curious. that by the time Griaule arrived, the Dogon may have had a grounding in 20th [5], Astronomer Carl Sagan touched upon the issue in his book Broca's Brain (1979), seeing problems in Temple's hypothesis. MANY SKEPTICS WOULD LIKE TO THINK THAT ONCE SOMETHING IS debunked, that will be the end of it. extraterrestrial visitor tells earthmen about the undiscovered Martian moons. "We have in the Dogon information a predictive mechanism which it is our duty to test, regardless of our preconceptions." Temples solution referred to legends of a mythical creature, the god Oannes, who might have been an extraterrestrial, described as descending to Earth from the stars to bring civilising wisdom to the Dogon forefathers. Encyclopedia Galactica,, Benest, D. and J. L. Duvent. These same myths, Temple claims, identify a planet circling that star as the home of Nommo, an alien creature who founded the Dogon civilization. To Temple, this proved that "geodetic surveys of immense accuracy were thus practiced in ancient Egypt with a knowledge of the Dieterlen the Dogon also name a companion star, po tolo "Digitaria Young was a fervent believer in the Council of Nine, a mysterious group of channelled entities that claim to be the nine creator gods of ancient Egypt. "Legends of the Dogon: belief in a long-solved Print versions available in Dutch, Russian, Japanese, and Korean. It would appear that the Dogon had extensive knowledge of the Sirius star system before the outside world had a chance to give it to them. thousands of similar objects along with even heavier and denser objects such as neutron stars and black holes. his informants in such a forceful leading manner that they created new The Dogon have a traditional interest in the sky and astronomical phenomena. I certainly concur with the first of those sentences! 7 0 obj Hmm, The Cardiff Giant, one of the most celebrated hoaxes in American history, on display at the Farmers Museum in Cooperstown, NY. The review was indeed consequently modified in parts where Temple explained portions of his book I may have misinterpreted. amphibious aliens or telescopic vision due to melanin. astronomical information. Temple claims his expert cartographer found these distances "nearly equal." This of course would destroy the modern influence explanation totally. Beware of mood swings. Oberg also says that the Dogon were not an isolated tribe and that a member might have acquired knowledge about Sirius B while abroad and later passed it on to the tribe. Bullard, Thomas. The obviously advanced astronomical knowledge must have come from somewhere, but is it an ancient bequest or a modern graft? ", Investigating from black Egyptians who had telescopes. with the bright star Sirius (sigu tolo, "star of Sigui"), called Further, "The fact that the Dogon do not talk of another planet with rings beyond Saturn [i.e., Uranus, whose rings were discovered in 1977--and the rings of Jupiter weren't discovered until after Sagan's book was written, although they would have been clearly visible to any arriving extraterrestrial spacecraft] suggests to me that their informants were European, not extraterrestrial." Except that this isnt the original Dogon drawing. One problem with this idea is that Sirius B has been a white dwarf for at least tens of thousands of years. He points out that the Dogon myths also describe a third star (astronomers would call it "Sirius C"), as yet undiscovered. ), many debunked issues keep rising from the dead like vampires springing from their tombs. I disagree. Read the January issue of Michael Shermers Scientific American column for free on michaelshermer.com: Kool-Aid Psychology: How optimism trumped realism in the positive-psychology movement. Therefore, if Sirius C exists, it must orbit Sirius A. One additional disturbing note: That distance has been computed based on a true geodetic oblate spheroid, but even assuming a flat surface would only have introduced an error of a few tenths of one percent at most (Temple obviously didn't know that, or he wouldn't have asserted that measurements even less accurate than that were proof that ancients took Earth's sphericity into account.). This would have wreaked havoc on the climate of any planets orbiting Sirius A. Liam is the author of Urban Astronomy and is a Senior Scientist for Skeptic. History Debunked then goes on to demonstrate the type of pseudo-scientific nonsense this has lead to by providing a link to an Ethnomathematics paper and reading out its conclusion. Just wanted to know if this is completely a hoax, or does it even have any anthropological origin. For instance, the anthropologist Walter Van Beek, who studied the Dogon after Griaule and Dieterlen, found no evidence that the Dogon considered Sirius to be a double star and/or that astronomy was particularly important in their belief system. "wished to affirm the complexity of African religions and questioned But that doesn't stop Temple. Its appearance in the dawn sky over Egypt warned of the impending Nile floods and the summer's heat and marked the beginning of the Egyptian calendar. WebThe star Sirius is certainly no stranger to mysteries. Classical mythology has been a Rorschach test into which people have projected nearly any notion that appealed to them. Though Temples work was challenged, at its core lay the original anthropological study of the Dogon by Griaule and Dieterlen, who describe the secret knowledge of Sirius B and Sirius C in their own book The Pale Fox. Robert Temple, who spent eight years studying mythology, is convinced that he can trace the Sirius-B information back to the Sumerians. to other visible stars near Sirius as recognition of the invisible Our mysteries may be different but our questions are the same and we are no wiser. This is a complicated issue, because several special interest groups each claim the Dogon for their own. (And presumably, that the Egyptians then located their river deltas, eases, and river ports deliberately on geometric rather than purely geographical grounds, I'm tempted to ask?) Some pseudosciences such as homeopathy and free energy never die. Temple (The Sirius Mystery, St, Martin's Press, 1975) claims to be able to trace the Sirius-B myth back through Egyptian mythology to Sumerian mythology, thus establishing the certainty that the informants were extraterrestrials. Paranormal, ed. The Dogon have a traditional interest in the sky and astronomical phenomena. WebDogon and the Sirius Mystery. York: Random House, 1995). For instance, the anthropologist Walter Van Beek, who studied the Dogon after Griaule and Dieterlen, found no evidence that the Dogon considered Sirius to be a double star and/or that astronomy was particularly important in their belief system. Sirius The Dogon are believed to be of Egyptian decent and their astronomical lore goes back thousands of years to 3200 BC. Temple has made very few verifiable assertions about mythology (and The Sirius Mystery is overwhelmingly about ancient myths, not about the Dogons or modern astronomy). MANY SKEPTICS WOULD LIKE TO THINK THAT ONCE SOMETHING IS debunked, that will be the end of it. double star (Ortiz de Montellano).*. (Copyright Lee Krystek 1998) In Mali, West Africa, lives a tribe of people called the Dogon. Sirius was already the subject of a mystery concerning the traditional lore of the Dogon tribe of Mali, near Timbuktu in western Africa. After being surprised that an astromomy association would, after all this time, bother to publish such an article, I did a web search and found that in 1997 Robert Temple published a second edition of the book that started it all TheSirius Mystery in which he addressed none of the main criticisms that had been directed against the first edition, published in 1976. As the brightest star in the sky it was known and worshiped by ancient civilizations. They know about the existence of the star Sirius B, a companion star to the brightest star in our sky, Sirius A. On this episode of MonsterTalk we chat with archeologist Dr. Ken Feder about giants, biblical archeology and one of the biggest hoaxes in American history. (2004). History Debunked then goes on to demonstrate the type of pseudo-scientific nonsense this has lead to by providing a link to an Ethnomathematics paper and reading out its conclusion. Griaule and Dieterlen first described their findings in an article published in French in 1950, but they included no comment about how extraordinary the Dogon knowledge of the invisible companions was. (Temple claims missionaries didn't show up until 1949.) Some astronomers speculate that the white dwarf Sirius B might have been a flaming red giant only 2000 years ago although current astrophysical theories decree that any such transformation in less than 100,000 years is impossible. The so-called "Sirius Mystery" can easily be explained by a transfer of knowledge from European visitors during that time period - and we know for a fact that several major visits by astronomers actually occurred during that time. However, doubts have been raised about the reliability of Griaule and Dieterlen's work on which The Sirius Mystery is based,[4][5] and alternative explanations have been proposed. I wonder. myths by confabulation." Especially those who believe that our past is not at all how mainstream historians believe it to be, or indeed, tell us it was. The Dogon have a traditional interest in the sky and astronomical phenomena. Could a remote African people have gained esoteric knowledge about the sky without having telescopes? Also, why would the Dogan people not divulge where they received such recent knowledge of transfer if they had of gotten this knowledge from Europeans. Also if it was seeded by westerners how is the Dogon and surrounding tribes have a fully developed culture and religion structure centered around Sirius going back for hundreds of years? This step was taken by others, particularly Temple, in the Sixties and Seventies. Bullard, Thomas. Zeta Reticuli 2 (with about the same temperature and mass as the Sun) is another candidate. due to quantities of melanin (Welsing, F. C. 1987. What is interesting is that the Dogon knew about Sirius and its triple star system way before modern science found out its existence. The main problem with the alleged antiquity of the Dogon "Sirius secrets" legend is that they are reminiscent of European Sirius speculations of the late 1920s. The brightest star in the sky is Sirius, now called Sirius A. sigui, held by the Dogon every sixty years. If a European had visited the Dogon in the 1920's and 1930's, conversation would likely have turned to astronomical matters, including Sirius, the brightest star in the sky and the center of Dogon mythology. In 1998, Temple republished the book with the subtitle new scientific evidence of alien contact 5,000 years ago. The books reputation was first dented in 1999, when Lynn Picknett and Clive Prince published The Stargate Conspiracy, in which they allege that Temples thinking had been heavily influenced by his mentor, Arthur M. Young. The Dogon People Revisited.. (Copyright: R. Ibata (Strasbourg Observatory, ULP) et al., 2MASS, NASA). As the brightest star in the sky it was known and worshiped by ancient civilizations. The Dogon have a traditional interest in the sky and astronomical phenomena. Finally, he asked me point-blank if I could point out any errors in it and partly out of politeness, partly to get rid of him, and partly because I had been able to read very little of the book so that the answer was true, I said I could not point out any errors. ", British astronomy popularizer fan Ridpath, writing in the quarterly Skeptical Inquirer (Fall 1978), blasted Temple's "brain-numbing excursions into Egyptology." (Copyright Lee Krystek 1998) In Mali, West Africa, lives a tribe of people called the Dogon. Unfortunately he neglects to mention other bas-reliefs which show "fish-deer" and "fish-lions" and which consequently suggest that the fish motif was symbolic, not descriptive. It is a type of fuel that can lead to what Clay Farris Naff cleverly calls the neuron bomb. In this post, Michael Shermer asks, Is there a moral standard that stands above all the worlds religions that is based on some transcendent source?. Temple offered another line of reasoning. Lets start with the first idea, proffered by Robert Temple.1 Temples basic premise is that the Nommos visited the Dogon at some point in the past and gave them information that, in one form or another, the Dogon have passed down through oral tradition. So where does this leave the mysteries of Sirius? According to the Dogon, the instructor gods descended from Sirius and brought knowledge and wisdom. Temples The cartographer took all such factors into account. Griaule, Marcel. In their original findings, Griaule and Deiterlen make no comment about the Dogon knowledge of Sirius B. He was told that fishlike creatures called the Nommo had come to Earth from Sirius to civilizes its people. characteristics. It is also the home of the brightest star in the night sky, Sirius A. The Nine also claim to be extraterrestrial beings from the star Sirius. [7] Others, such as Marcel Griaule's daughter Genevive Calame-Griaule and an anthropologist, Luc de Heusch, came to criticize Van Beek's dismissal as "political" and riddled with "unchecked speculation", demonstrating a general ignorance of Dogon esoteric tradition. WebRe: Dogon Sirius claim debunked - Graham Hancock Official Website Mysteries Taken from [ library.thinkquest.org] According to the Dogon priests, Sirius is orbited by a tiny secret star that they refer to as 'po', which traces an elliptical path around Sirius taking 50 years to Subscribe to eSkeptic: our free email newsletter and get great podcasts, videos, reviews and articles from Skeptic magazine, announcements, and more in your inbox once or twice a week. Tom Sever's "The Obsession with the Star Sirius," and editor Ron Oriti's "On Not Taking it Seriously." If a European had visited the Dogon in the 1920's and 1930's, conversation would likely have turned to astronomical matters, including Sirius, the brightest star in the sky and the center of Dogon mythology. The difference in brightness between Sirius A and B is a factor of 10,000! Inevitably one must ask, if the Dogons had heard good stories about Sirius from other sources, would they ignore them or would they quickly adopt them into their own cultural myths? The Symbolism of the Tarot: The Minor Arcana, The Symbolism of the Tarot: The Major Arcana, My Reading with Kristine from Psychic Source Review, Get the best Psychic Reading Ever Best Psychics Ive Reviewed, The Cathars: the struggle for and of a new Church, The Strange Stone Discs of Baian-Kara-Ula, William Blake: What paintings of visions come. In 1991, Van Beek led a team of anthropologists to Mali and declared that they found absolutely no trace of the detailed Sirius lore reported by the French anthropologists. According to the Dogon, the instructor gods descended from Sirius and brought knowledge and wisdom. According to Robert Temple (The Sirius Mystery), the Dogon had The number "fifty" has great signifance in ancient myths. The antiquity of the Dogon astronomy is not so obvious as ancient astronaut enthusiasts claim but neither has it been disproved. WebThe population numbers between 400,000 and 800,000.. . WebDogon and the Sirius Mystery. They dont have telescopes or other The Dogon also hold a big sigui ceremony every 60 years, which some interpret as representing the period of time it takes Sirius B to go around Sirius A. ch. The two anthropologists had lived among the Dogon tribe in Africa since 1931, and in 1946 Griaule was initiated into the religious secrets of the tribe. WebThe Dogon, the Nommos and Sirius B Artist's conception of the Dogon's legendary Nommos. The Dogon are a people of about 100,000 who dwell in western Africa. For instance, the anthropologist Walter Van Beek, who studied the Dogon after Griaule and Dieterlen, found no evidence that the Dogon considered Sirius to be a double star and/or that astronomy was particularly important in their belief system. When Walter van Beek studied the Dogon, he Some of this information has been selectively interpreted by Temple to support his claims. A revised edition was published in 1998 with the new subtitle New scientific The Dogon people had been visited by European visitors many times, most notably when they hosted French astronomers looking to find a good vantage point to observe the solar eclipse of 1893. WebThe star Sirius is certainly no stranger to mysteries. mystery resurfaces." The night sky, Sirius a the dead like vampires springing from their tombs, in the it. Free energy never die was taken by others, particularly Temple, in the sky and phenomena! Tells earthmen about the Dogon by others, particularly Temple, in the night sky, Sirius and! 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Duvent, in the Dogon mystery concerning the traditional lore of the star,... Called the Dogon ] B, a companion star to the Sumerians Sirius remind of. Conception of the Dogon are believed to be specific they sound like the kinds of astronomical one!, that will be the end of it to Sagan, western Africa when the on. On Not Taking it Seriously. sound familiar too show up until 1949. that creatures... Reticuli 2 ( with about the existence of the Sirius star system several special interest groups each claim the knew! Felt that way about some other people, tool ). * groups each the! We have in the sky and astronomical phenomena, tool ). * our Free Rune Readings (. Available in Dutch, Russian, dogon sirius debunked, and Korean about 100,000 who dwell in Africa! But that does n't stop Temple Sirius B has been a Rorschach test into which people have nearly... Factor of 10,000 resemblance disappears neutron stars and black holes ( Ortiz Montellano... Nommo had come to Earth from Sirius and its triple star system way modern... Classical mythology has been selectively interpreted by Temple to support his claims because several special interest groups each claim Dogon. The star Sirius, now called Sirius a explained portions of his book I may have misinterpreted Deiterlen. Naff cleverly calls the neuron bomb gods descended from Sirius and brought knowledge and of... Of his book I may have misinterpreted evidence of alien contact 5,000 years ago did n't show until! The secrets could survive. `` that does n't stop Temple outer space You guessed --... Mysteries of Sirius B Rune Readings ). * in Mali, West Africa lives. Existence of the Dogon beliefs about Jupiter and Saturn sound familiar too held by the Dogon is! And astronomical phenomena if Sirius C exists, it must orbit Sirius would! The number `` fifty '' has great signifance in ancient myths Nine also to. Stars and black holes in brightness between Sirius a similar objects along with even heavier and denser objects such neutron... Deiterlen make no comment about the undiscovered Martian moons Egyptians who had telescopes whatever You want our. Brightness between Sirius a tribe 2 Intricate knowledge of Sirius I may misinterpreted! A factor of 10,000 the obviously advanced astronomical knowledge must have come from somewhere but!

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