Get your complimentary mortgage payment estimate* Apply Now. The night before that, we did an examination of conscience together. And two, they are binding to the faithful Catholic, who is threatened with an anathema if they reject any of them, despite them all contradicting God-breathed scripture. And I would also address that Luke actually specifically states that it is a salutation. So Im not going to comment on that. It has to be interpreted charitably, or its possible there might be an error in a magisterial statement recounting history, but that doesnt apply the charism to the doctrine itself. Other doctors like Ambrose, Augustine, Irenaeus and others in the early church, like Tertullian, Origen, Hillary of Portier, and seven popes believed Mary was either conceived in sin or committed acts of personal sin, including Thomas Aquinas, as late as the 13th century. Trent Horn vs Steve Christie Apocrypha Debate Recap & Discussion, Our Friend Steve Christie Gets Mitch Pacwa to Admit Abel to Zechariah Is About the Canon, Conversation On The Old Testament Canon With Steve ChristiePart 1, Conversation On The Old Testament Canon Part 2 with Steve Christie, Conversation On The Old Testament Canon with Steve ChristiePart 3, Gary Michutas Apocrypha Apocalypse Challenge ANSWERED! Yeah. Steven is related to James P Christie and Helen J Christie as well as 1 additional person. Finally, Christies Pharisee argument for the Protestant Old Testament canon fails because its logic can be used to make a similar argument for a completely different Old Testament canon. Search. So that would mean if youre the firstborn, that youre going to have other children. Im not sure why she would be surprised when told that shes going to have a son, given that under Jewish law, she and Joseph were free to engage in conjugal relations even right at that moment after the angel had left. Okay. Were going to move into seven-minute rebuttals. But anyways, Im going to come back to that. As far as adelphos, I dont have a problem with the word adelphos, but my question is, why would you abandon its primary meaning for another meaning when it doesnt demand it? How do we know theyre brothers? The claim that Mary did not give birth to other children because Jesus is called the son of Mary. But let me get to that point about death though. He would end up playing two years for the Buccaneers. Now Steve has said, Well, they were assumed into heaven alive and if Mary died, she would not be assumed into heaven. But thats not the case. As far as original sin, if you look at catholic.com, the encyclopedia, it states that The Second Council of Orange, it states that, The death of the body, which is the punishment for sin. In other words, sin results in death of the body. Okay. All right. However, prior to this debate, Trent and I had agreed not to talk about Mary being referred to it as the mother of God, because its not really an issue that we disagree on, as long as it is understood how it was originally meant to be a Christological title and not a specific title of Mary, such as being queen of heaven. James White: Steve Ray is a Dolt, Dunce, Imbecile, Idiot, and Ignoramus *** [] What is clear is that Ray has not seriously interacted with anything other than this kind of "Jack Chick/Dave Hunt . Had Adam not sinned he would be alive today, as well as Mary had she not inherited Adam sin nature, a view shared by Catholic Answers and the Second Council of Orange. Mary and Joseph are perfectly free to have children. My argument is how the word adelphos is specifically is used to the New Testament Greek. Can a person with a human nature die even if they are free from sin? Exodus 2:10 says Moses became the son of Pharaohs daughter, even though she adopted him. By providing an accessible and growing repository of teaching materials, as well as providing a means of networking within the apologetics community, ourvisionis to be a significant educational resource for churches, campus groups, and Christians around the world. Ye, because Jesus younger half sibling was Joseph while Jesus father was God. He became sinner. Hallo.com/mattfred. And they did not want people following them. I would stress that we look at what the church teaches in its magisterial teachings about Mary and her important role in salvation. He is resolutely atheist, but not of the 'religion poisons everything' variety; he thinks institutional religion - while based on an entirely false premise - can evolve and be a force for good. Im not saying that Jesus is the son of Mary means that shes the only person he bore. The Buffalo Bills officially signed Christie to a one-day contract, thus to retire as a Buffalo Bill. Other arguments, I think are bad, the claim that Mary had to be immaculately conceived because Jesus could not be conceived within a woman who is sinful. After an in-depth study of the writings of the Church Fathers, both Steve and his wife Janet converted to the Catholic Church. Youve got 10 minutes to cross-examine Trent. He says, Jesus words would have sounded exactly the same if the narrative of Zechariahs death had occurred in the book of Kings or in the Psalms. Give me a second here. On July 2, 2007, Christie joined the Toronto Argonauts of the Canadian Football League by signing a practice roster agreement with the team. Okay. And this is what I did in the opening statement. Themissionof Apologetics 315 is to provide educational resources for the defense of the Christian faith, with the goal of strengthening the faith of believers and engaging the questions and challenges of other worldviews. But I mean, some of the early ones, Id probably Definitely not Judas Iscariot. Does the Authorial Model have a Fictitious Problem? What we can find in the writings of the Church Fathers, however, are hundreds of citations of the deuterocanonical books as inspired Scripture. I mean, I have to really think about that. Im not sure what your question is. And I truly believe that because youre a nice guy. This is known as [inaudible 01:09:50]. Click the link in the description below to go through to the greatest Catholic prayer and meditation app on the planet. Those that have been infallibly defined to be part of divine revelation. Geoffrey Stephen "Steve" Christie (born November 13, 1967) is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League, who, as a member Steve Christie - Nangungunang mga yugto ng podcast Hebrews 11:5 states, By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death. And he was not found because God took him up. - Fr. But renowned Protestant Greek grammarian Bill Mounce says Jesus reference to Nicodemus as the teacher of Israel is actually a sarcastic rebuke. Mary doesnt take the place of Christ. So since Jacob is referred to as the son of Isaac, and Reuben as the son of Jacob, then were they only children? And its talking about the opinion of the fathers of the most glorious Virgin being an unstable miracle of God and being the mother of God. Do you know him? As Trent Horn stated in his debate against Dr. James White, Our theology should come from the Bible, not the Bible from our theology. Thats Sola Scriptura, folks, and I agree with him as did the Apostle Paul and the first century Roman Church. Thank you very much, Trent. And Trent and I actually talked a little bit about this, about essentials versus non-essentials of the faith. So then the word adelphos could also apply in this case to describe people that they have the same adoptive father, Joseph, but different mothers, Josephs first wife and his second wife. And at basic, psalms 69, if you continue reading, it says that the Messiah was taking on the reproach of other people. Second Corinthians is clear, God made him who knew no sin to become sin for us. Please click that. Okay. Trent mentioned about dying once. So Im going to cover four of them. In 2 Kings 2:11, Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven, meaning he did not see death either before being assumed to heaven. And the same is true for us, that Mary was free from sin, but she still had an earthy body. Dr. Steven Christie, MD is a Diagnostic Radiology Specialist in Miami, FL and has over 28 years of experience in the medical field. We ought to do it. I thought about writing a book on-. After leaving the Bills after the 2000 season, Christie played with the Chargers and Giants. From 2001 to 2003 he played for the San Diego Chargers, who, with the hire of former Bills GM John Butler, acquired several former Buffalo players. Zacharias' daughter, Sarah Davis, posted a message on the website of Ravi Zacharias International Ministries on Tuesday, titled " Ravi Zacharias, Now With Jesus ," confirming that the . Or are they all good? As Roman Catholics, because Mary was not an issue, they did have a problem with her being a perpetual Virgin and I believe Calvin was kind of on the fence about it, so its irrelevant because theyre Catholic. Because you could say, Well, Solomon is the son of David, but David had many other children besides Solomon. In fact, the authors of these texts, such as Sirach, described writing down Gods wisdom to indicate they were writing Scripture, which wouldnt make sense if they thought the canon was closed. In order to show these dogma contradict scripture, Steve must do one of two things. I do remember in that debate with James White five years ago, saying, Our theology should come from the Bible, not the Bible from our theology. And I was not arguing for Sola Scriptura. And even if it wasnt, I dont see the relevance to it. Pauls letters were occasional, and the scriptural texts that he cited and used were determined largely by the circumstances in which he was writing. The question for Joseph-. Okay. I think thats really terrific. I wouldnt assume that that involves a vow virginity, but I think theres a different context in relation to the fact that we have betrothal between Mary and Joseph, that its an odd construction. If anything like the parents hes a good kid, but I cant imagine by the age of seven that his oldest child hasnt sinned one time. He also did color commentary for the University at Buffalo Bulls football team on WECK radio. This is make or break time. Though a mere chip-shot, from 32 yards, the three-pointer enabled . Hallow.com/mattfred, click the link in the description below. He had cancer and heart disease. Origen and Melito present lists that modern scholars recognize are of Jewish origin and so they lack the deuterocanonicals, but even these lists are missing books such as Esther and Lamentations. First Corinthians 15 talks about heavenly bodies and that Mary is given Well, I think what Steve was saying here is that, okay, well, Mary had an earthy body. And again, what I argued is how adelphi is used consistently in the New Testament Greek, not how its used in a Greek translation of the Old Testament. We dont believe that is the case. Christie also claims Jesus reference to the Pharisee Nicodemus as the teacher of Israel (John 3:10) meant the Pharisees had unique teaching authority over other Jews. Reply to this thread. And Steve has not ruled that out. Okay, I get that. I already addressed Psalm 65, but Steve said, Well, the sins were applied to Jesus in a non-literal way. Right, but notice what it says in Psalm 69:5 of the Messiah, Oh God, thou knowest my folly. General Manager New South Wales MRC Australia Sep 2017 - Dec 2018 1 year 4 months. The Isaiah 7:14 prophecy only indicates that Mary was to remain a virgin during her pregnancy and up to the Messiahs birth., The NAB continues, The evangelist is simply concerned to emphasize that Joseph was not responsible for the conception of Jesus, which is why Matthew stresses the child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. Steve Christie also has his own website. In Ineffabilis Deus, where immaculate conception is defined, the word unanimous appears once. How do you understand Luke 1:28s title for Mary as full of grace in the Greek, literally meaning something like having been made completely full in regards to the immaculate conception? . It has all the free resources including the Study Guide to his first book, all his Bible studies, and his contact info: http://vernisage.us/stevechristie/ Steve Christie has also appeared on the Third Man Podcast: Steve Christie has written several books: WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Steve Christie joins me this week to discuss how he got started in apologetics and why it is important. ): 32 (3488th overall since 1960) High School: Trafalgar ( Canada ) 2 2 8 2 SUMMARY Career G 229 AV 45 FGM 336 FGA 431 XPM 468 XPA 473 Career Postseason 1990 1991 Back to top Alert abuse. But were not debating whether the Marian Dogmas have a historical foundation in the writings of the church fathers. Jesus tells the apostles and Matthew 28:20, Observe all that I have commanded you and behold, I am with you always to the close of the age. Even though Jesus will be with the apostles even after the present age comes to an end. Trace and Steve both share their thoughts on the current state of Bitcoin and Wyoming's friendly Blockchain laws. on Morgan Stanley Wealth Management 631-755-8843. GANYARD: It sure is, George. How do we know Andrew and Peter are brothers? What about the deuterocanonical books of Scripture written in the 400 years before Christs birth? I mean, its quite possible theyre born of different mothers, but theres no evidence for us to pursue that route. Finally, this debate is not about Marian doctrines or theological opinions about Mary. And then Steve, because Steve, I can tell that youve really wrestled with what Catholicism teaches. If you like todays episode, become a premium subscriber at our Patreon page and get access to member only content. I mean, you got me on the spot. Alright what about the Immaculate Conception? All right. So Trent, what are some arguments that you hear Catholics put forth for any of the dogmas we are discussing today, that you wish they would stop putting forth because theyre bad arguments? You mean the son of John? Yeah. Psalm 130, verse eight, promises God will redeem Israel from all its iniquities. And that Greek grammarians and New Testament scholars simply disagree with Steve on this point, hes just wrong about the semantic range of that word. Things like whether shes Mediatrix or Co-Redemprtix. Okay. Yeah, no, no, no. And I also want to thank Trent for picking the particular title on how it was actually described because I had mentioned, Hey, lets just do the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. And hes like, Lets do all three of them. So it was Trents idea. A protestant scholar Craig keener says neither the title favored or graced one nor the promise the Lord is with you was traditional in greetings even if the person had been of status. They also allude to events and stories contained in these texts. Campbell states that when it comes to Josephus claims about a universal Hebrew canon, as well as an entire manuscript tradition that had never been altered, Josephuss rhetoric has run ahead of reality. You would expect there to be deviations from it. This dogma was defined by Pope Pius the ninth, but not ex cathedra in 1854 and is not shared by the Eastern Orthodox, despite not skisming with the West until the 11th century demonstrating that this was a much later development foreign to the New Testament writers and the early church. Luther and Zwingli though, probably they did believe that Mary was ever Virgin. The experience of over thirty years of singing professionally has taught him how to tune into the lover that lives in us all. Yeah. I believe all things are possible with God. Probably not like any other piece of wood. So we could assume that they have the same biological mother and father. Lets see how much we can get through. 878 talking about this. But when we look at something like Strongs for example, are you aware that Strongs defines adelphos and adelphe the same way? For more information, visit trenthornpodcast.com. Well, theres Pokemon The First Movie, and it was so bad, there were no other movies. Whether youre up to speed or not on the contents of the Deuterocanon, this is an insightf. We should only offer that to the father and the holy sacrifice of the mass. In Super Bowl XXVIII, Christie set a Super Bowl record by kicking a 54-yard field goal. He was put on a cross. But they disagree about that because at least infant baptism, for many Protestants, at least it doesnt contradict Scripture, even if Scripture is silent on the matter. It does not show that. 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